This book was edited by Marcus Borg. This book is a compilation of a symposium called Jesus at 2000. It was sponsored by the Jesus seminar and most of the writers are members of the seminar. The Jesus seminar is a group of scholars who do consider themselves Christians. They attend mainline denominations and disagree with key doctrines of the faith or redefine them to make them more palatable.
My first encounter with the Jesus seminar came ten years ago. A program by D. James Kennedy presented this group. They are well-respected by the news media and are the go-to people whenever a story about Jesus surfaces. This is the first book that I have read that they wrote.
The symposium is held on the subject of Jesus. They do not believe that the Bible is totally true. They reject a virgin birth. They believe that the pre-Easter Jesus is very different than the post-Easter Jesus. They believe that the gospels includes two accounts of Christ. The first account is the voice, what Jesus actually said. The second is community, the things the community has said about Christ. They do not believe that Jesus claimed to be God. They believe that four gospels present an evolving view about Christ. They believe that the gnostic gospels give clues to Jesus' life. They believe that this method has allowed them to be Christians again. They can respect Christ but don't have to believe that he is God or that he is the only way to salvation.
I read the book because I was interested in what liberals believe about Christ. The book gives little facts to back up their claims. They have a "we know this is true" attitude. This book does give a glimpse into alternative thinking about Christ. It is an interesting read but I don't know that I'd recommend it. It definitely did not convince me that Jesus was not God and the Bible was not true.
Don't let anyone try to tell you that Jesus is not real. I have seen Him work miracles in this life on earth. I have read your blog and I hope you ignore those people who can't see our Lord Jesus Christ working your life. You are a brilliant child of God, of our Father. Keep true to your calling and remember that anyone who bombards you with negativity is someone who can't see the light of Jesus Christ shining through you to light up this wicked world. Your Sister in Christ, Lilly.
ReplyDeleteI suggest you read other books regarding liberal views on Jesus and the Bible. What you read does not appear to be written by Chrsitians, but skeptics who question translations of the Bible to suit whatever whim the Church was trying to portray at certain times in history. Don't forget that books, even in the post-Elizabethan era of King James, were a privilege of the upper classes and the clergy. And OCCASIONALLY women, who were deemed as slaves were in America: too dumb to comprehend deep, philosophical thought from Plato on down to the misogynistic translators of the KJV.
ReplyDeleteTo be a scholar is to question EVERYTHING, even the Bible. Especially the shift that happened once the populace was widely literate and the Church was no longer a monolith to be feared (save the Catholics, who got away with Latin services until Vatican 2 in 1965). The evangelical/fundamentalist leaders today are of this mindset; ignorance breeds blind allegiance. I respectfully, but strongly disagree with this treatment of the human race in this educated day and age.
Why don't you pick up books by scholars from more liberal denominations such as the Episcopalians, which is essentially what the Church of England morphed into in America. Try to accept all views in your own education and understand one size of Christianity (or religion in general) does NOT fit all. What you believe is right for YOU and works for YOU, but EVERYBODY tweaks the manual in their own ways, liberal, fundamentalist, or somewhere in between. You're not right or wrong, just different.
I don't see miracles. I don't expect anything from anyone or anything that I don't earn by my merits. Frankly, the more I read about organized religions, the more laughable they became TO ME, having been weak and preyed upon by "well-meaning" Christians who only meant to make themselves look better. I respect their efforts, but they were not given in the spirit intended and when I attended churches, I was shunned and laughed at. It was their power. And I turned away from that. I can be shunned and laughed at anywhere; a place of trust and worship shouldn't be one of them. This is why I'm hypersensitive to remarks on your wife's blog by Christians demeaning Emily's "detractors" who they see as heathens. Some of Em's biggest fans are tree-hugging hippies and plenty of criticism has been leveled at her from the Believers, so that situation, as is any in life, is not black/white, right/wrong.
With respect, because I am honestly curious about theology from an historical point of view. I hope you've read The Canterbury Tales to the point of memory. Yes, they were Catholics, but plenty of Chaucer's ideas from the 14th Century are currently part of fundamentalist doctrine today.
At best this post was written at a 4th grade level. What's worse Dan is that you don't have the slightest idea what you read. You don't understand the position is of the author, you don't understand his/her underlying philosophy or systematic theology. You simply don't understand what you read and I'm certain it's not limited to this high school level book.
ReplyDeleteHow can you possibly lead a church when you don't have the basic skill of reading comprehension? It begs the question whether or not you are really called to be a pastor. Is being a pastor simply what you want or is it actually something God has called you to do. There is a difference. Considering your lack of writing ability and your lack of reading comprehension, I dare say you should consider whether or not pastoring is God called or Dan's desire.
Read Vikipedia on "Jesus Seminar", I think it will help you. The 150 people who belong to the Jesus Seminar are not "LIBERALS", they are authors and scholars with advanced degree in biblical and/or religious studies.
ReplyDeleteThey are highly educated THINKERS, who might be liberals, or might not. I would wager, that their education and degrees in the majority are not from Christian fundamentalist colleges, where evidently one can get a degree with limited knowledge.
I think what you would need at this moment, is taking some Bible study classes at a regular university - even if the university is not an outstanding one. You should be exposed to regular scientific thinking and perhaps writing -
that does not seem to be working at a Christian college. Do you regularly write papers, essays, and articles? (English is my second language - and I seem to be flabbergasted to read your two blogs).
Gina
Dan, what Publius wrote got me thinking. I would love to read a post on how you know you are called to be a pastor. I recall my old pastor's story of being out camping and "receiving the call," and love hearing others' accounts.
ReplyDeleteDan....You want to lead a church, have as many kids as the lord allows you (penis thinking) and then you wanna take those children, under the guise of organized religion to the poorest communities in the country pulling a mobile home behind you. Pastor Dan. I bet you can wait to hear those words roll off your congregations lips.
ReplyDeleteYou'll have that big degree from an unaccredited college (which means absolutely NOTHING) in your back pocket, pull it out and post it to all the poor, uneducated folks just tryin to get by. You'll pastor them, convince them that Christmas trees aren't to be bought or enjoyed because, "well, just because I said so and I'm here to lead you, listen to me, I'm Pastor Dan, I won't steer you wrong." You'll have Emily writing, editing and typing your weekly sermon to the few poor folks that get their sense of community from the poor church down the road, your church.
I dunno, Dan, the more I read your blog and then Emily's blog I think a better goal for you might be upper management for the Wal-Mart corp. You seem to like it there and you certainly believe in many of their practices PLUS you'll still be leading a flock of poor people. They just won't be in your own church, but rather the church of Wal-Mart. And I'd bet that degree you get from that unaccredited college will just be fine and dandy for the Wal-Mart boys. They might even start you as head cashier on the night shift. You could preach all night long to your staff about the ways of wal-mart and how good wal-mart was to you; paying you less than 1000 a month while you were in that unaccredited bible college. Maybe you'll make a million off your blogs, after all Emily is able to show us how to make a taco 365different ways, along with 365 ways to fill said taco. Your favorite meal.
Dan, please don't listen to those who are trying to pull you away from our Lord. They simply don't understand that God is working through you. They come back and read and comment because they are desperate to become one of God's children. You are amazing, an amazing instrument of God's perfect will. By example, you will lead those who are weaker in this world. May God's grace be with you.
ReplyDeleteSister: I'm a Christian and far from trying to pull Dan from Christ I'm calling on him to consider whether or not God is truly calling him to lead a flock. I think that's a legitimate question to pose to Dan.
ReplyDeleteDona, I think your rant is a little over the top with hyperbole. That said, I think upper management at Wal-Mart is a little much for Dan. What has he shown us here that would make any of us think he's capable of being upper management anywhere. He can't write, he has trouble comprehending what he's read and he so much as admits that he likely has a learning disability.
We are all called on by God to use the skills he has given us. Dan has a certain set of skills, I don't think those are put to best use as a pastor. My guess is that like a lot of idealistic young men he thinks the only way to serve God is through being a pastor. He's wrong of course which is why he really needs to seek God's will on this matter rather than seek his own will.
PUB......I would consider myself a christian just not a follower of organized religion and the reason for that is simple: The Dans of the world who couldn't find their ass with both hands yet have some idea that they can lead a congregation of people, poor people no less. There is a reason he chooses to preach in the poor, uneducated communities of the world. Anyone with a strong sense of self isn't going to listen to Pastor Dan. He isn't articulate, nor can he write above an 8th grade level. He has zero critical thinking skill; a high school senior could throw him under the bus in a matter of seconds, and I'm being generous when I say that. Dan needs to concentrate on leading his family out of that tiny cramped apartment before he decides to lead anybody anywhere else.
ReplyDeleteStill, having said all that, I don't mean to say that Dan isn't a good man, a kind person, a great father or a wonderful husband. He can be many things but in my opinion his idea of being a Pastor is not realistic, it just isn't. I haven't been impressed nor motivated by one single blog entry Dan has written. NOT ONE. Surely there are other ways in which Dan can serve the lord or isn't just being a good christian man enough -- why does he have to lead anybody? He might be a great bible study leader, or a wonderful little league coach, I don't know but certainly there is a calling out for Dan, I just don't think he has found it.
Sister in Christ -- don't you understand that it isn't the end of the world if Dan takes another path in life? A path that he is truly more suited for, a path that will no doubt make him happier, a path with less stress. Like his wife, Dan is young and idealistic; both of them dreamers without a pot to piss in. Just the idea of them buying a mobile home, remodeling it to fit their expanding family and hauling it around -- it doesn't even make any sense. It's a silly idea made out of desperation. A mobile home has got to be one of the worst investments ever. Not only that, they're poorly constructed and not meant to be hauled all over the country AFTER it's been remodeled. The cost of moving the damn thing would out weigh the value almost immediately, if not immediately. They'd be better off buying a tent.
I've been around the block a few more times than either Dan or Emily, and my children are older than both Dan and Emily. IF either of my children came to me with an idea as silly as that mobile home idea I'd sit them down and have a very long conversation with them. Emily and Dan need some guidance. Plain and simple. Where are their parents? Where is that voice of reason that most kids get from an adult figure in their life? I'm guessing that Emily is a bit too big for her britches, somewhat of a know it all, and isn't about to have anybody tell her anything. EXCEPT for Dan. And that my friends is a whole other topic to write about -- her idea to be submissive to a man that she has to articulate, write, edit and practically think for. Who's leading whom?
I have to admit Dona you make a great deal of sense in your last note. Dan and Emily strike me as nice enough people who are woefully naive about how the world works.
ReplyDeleteWhat's sad is that they won't take advice from anyone. Look at the way Emily responds to her noters, many of whom do little more than express concern or offer a different idea. Such noters are attacked because Emily doesn't care to take advice from anyone. After all, she's got it all figured out at 23. She has all the makings of a terrible pastors wife. Not because she's a rotten person but because she comes off as a know it all who isn't interested in taking advice from people. Especially people who don't live as she does. This attitude isn't going to sit well with a congregation. She'll have enemies before they even get settled in a church. She doesn't want to hear it and I'm certain she won't like it. But it's reality. People expect the pastors wife to be gracious, Emily isn't gracious and worse she's a know it all.
As for Dan, I think he's well intentioned. But there comes a point where we all have to recognize our limitations in life. When you read and write at a 5th grade level your lot in life probably isn't pastoring.
PUB..... Emily is arrogant. Being poor and making it work is her thing, it's seemingly what makes her tic. What she doesn't seem to understand is time is money too. AND that the oven is her friend. The crock pot is her friend too, but to spend time making a pizza from scratch and then ruining the whole concept of GOOD PIZZA by cooking it in crock pot for a few hours to save a few pennies is INSANE! Making soda from scratch? Buying the cheap store brand might cost a penny or two more and I'm not even sure about that, but really, isn't quality worth even those few pennies saved? Even pasta -- with three small children, one being an infant, how cost effective is making your own pasta? Wouldn't that time be better spent at a PARK, OUTSIDE the 450sq ft. apartment? And what is wrong with applying for food stamps, WIC program, help with housing? Dan,you're a student, you have three children, you're not doing anything wrong by asking for help during these tough times. In fact, that is why those programs are put in place. You don't have to use programs the rest of your life, but when money is tight it is OK to utilize those programs. IT's your arrogance that keeps you from using the help that is available to you. Emily would rather be a martyr and write about it. Happily of course.
ReplyDeleteI don't have a problem with them not taking government welfare. But I do agree that Emily doesn't consider the time value of money in her daily rants about cheap living. It takes a considerable amount of time to make fresh pasta. My wife makes it once in awhile, she's very good at it. But it's a special treat because with two little ones she doesn't have the time to sit in the kitchen all day rolling out pasta. And the good Lord knows she doesn't have time to make her own soda.
ReplyDeleteI think you hit Emily on the head, she wants very badly to be a martyr. Judging from some of her posts she also seems to be in childish rebellion against her mother. I think she gets a kick out of shocking people with her silly posts and I especially think she gets a kick out of shocking her family. Emily is extremely immature and we see her immaturity daily online. She's the kind of person who really doesn't belong online because she shouldn't be spouting off because she can't handle it. She loves to shock people but when anyone questions her she gets angry and defensive. Unfortunately her feeble minded husband won't put a stop to her blogging. After all, she might be able to earn a couple pennies at it.
PUB... I don't take issue with them not taking government welfare either, but when you're that poor I see nothing wrong with taking it either. If not so much for Dan and Emily, for the children. Food stamps would allow her more quality time for her children. Make no mistake what she thinks is fun for her children -- cooking and cleaning -- can't be much fun for them nor can it much fun for Emily herself with two toddlers under foot all the time, although I doubt she'd ever admit that, martyrs usually don't. And I don't take issue with what she feeds her children either. Their diet wouldn't be my preferance but cutting sugar out of a childs diet isn't anything I see being too harmful. And really, I don't see anything wrong with the children eating pumpkin for a snack or her homemade ketchup either. It could be worse and the kids at that age don't know the difference anyway. Soon enough they will. Getting food stamps would simply allow her more time away from the stove, or in this case, the crock pot. She could buy pre-made pasta, yogurt, cheese....she could still make healty choices but maybe spend less time creating meals. Perhaps subsidized housing would afford them a bigger space with a washer and dryer in the building or right in their apartment or house, again, time saving benefits. Time is money. A concept Emily doesn't seem to grasp or want to grasp. I don't know which it is. However, I do think you're on to something when you talk about SHOCK VALUE -- Emily likes to shock and it makes for an interesting blog. Emily has had other blogs that were not as successful as this one and I'm pretty sure SHOCK VALUE comes to play in her decision with this particular blog. That is if you want to make money on a blog. That is another thing that puzzles me about Emily. As if her plate isn't full enough, she takes on Blogging which is very time consuming. First of all there is research when writing a blog, there is advertisment to seek out and nourish if you wanna make any money at all for all your effort. Then there is the actual writing of the blog, photos, topics to come up with daily, comments to read and answer -- it is very time consuming. Again for very little money, not to mention all the aggravation. Time is Money,Emily. Think about it.
ReplyDelete